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Author Topic: Internal Links Question 1 - Dofollow or Nofollow?  (Read 1066 times)
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Webnauts
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« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2009, 11:49:37 AM »

you did? really? from what program? it's a genuine site of a company we've been working with in India, and I cant see that alert or make it happen?
I am using AVG. And I just reported the issue to Google. That is not funny brother. Check it out.
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« Reply #45 on: March 28, 2009, 11:49:37 AM »

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« Reply #46 on: March 28, 2009, 11:58:45 AM »

interesting, I have AVG on IE here and the site: search is all big green ticks.

i'll email them and point them to this thread.

edit although I just noticed the domain / index page isnt in the results. maybe it's already been removed.

« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 12:03:41 PM by SEOibiza » Logged

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« Reply #47 on: March 28, 2009, 12:05:03 PM »

interesting, I have AVG on IE here and the site: search is all big green ticks.

i'll email them and point them to this thread.
I am on Firefox. After several attempts the popup stopped popping up, but their page could still not be displayed.

P.S. I lost so much time and money with Indian companies, that I will never try again for any price. And just a minute ago I got another spam mail from India. They piss me off bro.

But I closed down two web sites last week. I am damn good in fighting back spam.


« Last Edit: March 28, 2009, 12:06:47 PM by Webnauts » Logged

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« Reply #48 on: March 28, 2009, 12:08:05 PM »

is very strange, i cant make it do that at all, its fine here.

but there is that funny line of js there, I have no idea what that is being a non-coding type.

have emailed them anyway and pointed them to here.

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« Reply #49 on: March 29, 2009, 05:34:52 AM »

Back to topic ladies and gentlemen. Smiley

Here are some important updates on my research and tests. Please read first the parts of the interview below, before you jump to my thoughts:

Wige at WPW brought up this:
Quote
Matt Cutts: If the destination page has a noindex tag, that has no impact on the distribution of pagerank at all, because Google still follows the links, and thus must calculate outgoing pagerank.

Quote
Eric Enge: Can a NoIndex page accumulate PageRank?

Matt Cutts: A NoIndex page can accumulate PageRank, because the links are still followed outwards from a NoIndex page.

Eric Enge: So, it can accumulate and pass PageRank.

Matt Cutts: Right, and it will still accumulate PageRank, but it won't be showing in our Index. So, I wouldn't make a NoIndex page that itself is a dead end. You can make a NoIndex page that has links to lots of other pages. For example you might want to have a master Sitemap page and for whatever reason NoIndex that, but then have links to all your sub Sitemaps.

Eric Enge: Another example is if you have pages on a site with content that from a user point of view you recognize that it's valuable to have the page, but you feel that is too duplicative of content on another page on the site. That page might still get links, but you don't want it in the Index and you want the crawler to follow the paths into the rest of the site.

Matt Cutts: That's right. Another good example is, maybe you have a login page, and everybody ends up linking to that login page. That provides very little content value, so you could NoIndex that page, but then the outgoing links would still have PageRank.

Now, if you want to you can also add a NoFollow metatag, and that will say don't show this page at all in Google's Index, and don't follow any outgoing links, and no PageRank flows from that page. We really think of these things as trying to provide as many opportunities as possible to sculpt where you want your PageRank to flow, or where you want Googlebot to spend more time and attention....

... We did an interview with Rand Fishkin over at SEOmoz where we talked about the fact that NoFollow was a perfectly acceptable tool to use in addition to robots.txt. NoIndex and NoFollow as a metatag can change how Googlebot crawls your site. It's important to realize that typically these things are more of a second order effect. What matters the most is to have a great site and to make sure that people know about it, but, once you have a certain amount of PageRank, these tools let you choose how to develop PageRank amongst your pages....

... The URL removal tool is another way to do it. Typically, what I would probably recommend most people do, instead of going the NoIndex route, is to make sure that all their links point to the version of the page that they think is the most important. So, if they have got two copies, you can look at the back links within our Webmaster Central, or use Yahoo, or any other tools to explore it, and say what are the back links to this particular page, why would this page be showing up as a duplicate of this other page? All the back links that are on your own page are very easy to switch over to the preferred page. So, that's a very short term thing that you can do, and that only usually takes a few days to go into effect. Of course, if it's some really deep URL, they could certainly try the experiment with NoIndex. I would probably lean toward using optimum routing of links as the first line of defense, and then if that doesn't solve it, look at or consider using NoIndex.
Original source: http://www.stonetemple.com/articles/interview-matt-cutts.shtml

Everything is clear to me so far. For you too? If yes, go on reading.

Matt Cutts said:
Quote
So, if they have got two copies, you can look at the back links within our Webmaster Central, or use Yahoo, or any other tools to explore it, and say what are the back links to this particular page, why would this page be showing up as a duplicate of this other page? All the back links that are on your own page are very easy to switch over to the preferred page.
How easy is it to switch over to the preferred page? And what would you do if the backlinks are not on your own page, and come from external web sites? Implementing the canonical element? Maybe that could be an option. But will that work 100% as you desire? Is that always so easy to implement? Can you rely on that entirely, expecting to have full control and full satisfaction? To be honest with you: ME NOT!

Why not me? Google claims:
Quote
What happens if rel="canonical" points to a non-existent page? Or if more than one page in a set is specified as the canonical version?
We'll do our best to algorithmically determine an appropriate canonical page, just as we've done in the past.

Can Google follow a chain of rel="canonical" designations?
Yes, to some extent, but to ensure optimal canonicalization, we strongly recommend that you update links to point to a single canonical page.
Original source: http://google.com/support/webmasters/bin/answer.py?answer=139394

Did you watch the video there? If yes, do you also dab-dab-dab?  laugh

Canonical Element does not provide a guarantee: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnXponbEHjw&feature=channel

Can you rely entirely on the "canonical" element? Is there probably an alternative which can be far much better and secure?

Here are my most recent thoughts:

I have link on page A http:// www. seoworkers. com/goforit.html?bots=nocrawl
The destination page B has outbound links to other site pages or sites. So it is not a dead end.

In the robots.txt I have this:

User-agent: Googlebot
Noindex: *bots=nocrawl

Tested already several times, and it is sure that destination page B does not get indexed.
And even if there is an IBL from other internal pages or external sites, it does not get indexed either.

If I would disallow Googlebot to access the destination page B for example like

User-agent: Googlebot
Disallow: /goforit.html

... I would have created a dead end, since I would block Google accessing the destination page, as we discussed above.

That would nothing different as blocking pages with the "Disallow" directive in the robots.txt. Don't we create dead end (dangling) pages that way?

Therefore, I strongly believe that is the best alternative to avoid dead end (dangling) pages, if I can make sure that the destination pages have at least one outbound link.

Don't you think?

---
Notice: Googlebot supports the robots.txt directive "Noindex" since a long time, it is just not official.
I updated my robots.txt. If you look at it carefully, and you agree with the above, you will find it very interesting: http://www.seoworkers.com/robots.txt

I also updated the robots.txt of a customer with his permission to test, which is even more interesting to look at: http://www.gameshop.gr/robots.txt

Do you still think that the implementation of the "nofollow" attribute is a better solution when it comes to PageRank Siloing? Think twice before you answer.

SEOers Experts Unite!  laugh
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 11:32:41 AM by Webnauts » Logged

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« Reply #50 on: March 30, 2009, 02:08:26 PM »

John, firstly... thanks for the beer. It was well received. Secondly, the main point of the matt and eric interview is that pages blocked with noindex in the robots.txt or noindex in the meta tags or pages blocked with nofollow in the robots.txt still build PR. Thats what matt and everyone else (rand etc) are saying. It doesnt matter how many times you explain your technique, youre still blocking pages without blocking whether they build PR.

Also, the whole purpose of blocking pages with nofollow is so they dont get ANY PR -- leaving that PR free to be channeled to the pages we dont want in the supplementals yes?

Quote
Tested already several times, and it is sure that destination page B does not get indexed.
But does it still build a pagerank?
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« Reply #51 on: March 30, 2009, 02:42:45 PM »

Thanks For Sharing Your Knowledge With Us....
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« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2009, 03:54:41 PM »

Matt I am too sure you did not understand the concept. I wish I had the time to type here more details, but I don't. I can only offer a Skype conference if you wish.

There I can explain. Smiley
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« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2009, 03:55:49 PM »

Thanks For Sharing Your Knowledge With Us....
Did you understand the concept? Can you explain with your words what am I about? It would be very helpful for the others here.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 04:01:08 PM by Webnauts » Logged

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« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2009, 03:55:49 PM »

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« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2009, 04:19:43 PM »

John, i dont have the time to skype either. Lets just leave it for a while because my brain has had enough of thinking about it...! Huh?

What do you think about my comments here? - http://www.webproworld.com/google-discussion-forum/81387-duplication-meta-information.html
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« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2009, 04:31:38 PM »

John, firstly... thanks for the beer.
It was well received.
You are very welcome. Smiley

Secondly, the main point of the matt and eric interview is that pages blocked with noindex in the robots.txt or noindex in the meta tags or pages blocked with nofollow in the robots.txt still build PR.
1. In the interview there is no word about blocking with noindex in the robots.txt.
2. A page with noindex meta tag does not build PageRank for itself. That is why it is required that the page has outbound links, so Googlebot can pass the PR there.

Matt Cutts:"Now, if you want to you can also add a NoFollow metatag, and that will say don't show this page at all in Google's Index, and don't follow any outgoing links, and no PageRank flows from that page. We really think of these things as trying to provide as many opportunities as possible to sculpt where you want your PageRank to flow, or where you want Googlebot to spend more time and attention...."

Thats what matt and everyone else (rand etc) are saying.
Are you still sure? Smiley

It doesnt matter how many times you explain your technique, youre still blocking pages without blocking whether they build PR.
I am not blocking if the destination page has at least one outbound link that can be followed. Why an outbound link? Because since the page is noindex, the PR cannot be assigned to it = Dangling Page/Dead End Page!!! Hello? Is that clear now man?

If I am wrong, why did Matt say that? Did he suck that out of his fingers?

Matt Cutts: "That's right. Another good example is, maybe you have a login page, and everybody ends up linking to that login page. That provides very little content value, so you could NoIndex that page, but then the outgoing links would still have PageRank."

Also, the whole purpose of blocking pages with nofollow is so they dont get ANY PR -- leaving that PR free to be channeled to the pages we dont want in the supplementals yes?
Are you blocking pages with nofollow? WOW! Good to hear that. With the above technique I do not block pages. Blocking pages means in other words, that you share the PR assigned to the link with the pages of Googles entire index. Remember the post of Wige?

I do not block the bot to follow the link. It comes to the destination page, but the page says: No, no. The Page rank is for the next page/site. And below is the link.  laugh

Tested already several times, and it is sure that destination page B does not get indexed.
But does it still build a pagerank?
The PageRank arrives at the noindex page but does not stick there.

You want to test it man?

Setup a link to a page with the meta tag noindex. Have a link on it that can be followed.
Get some strong backlinks to the noindex page, and lets look at the toolbar 3 months later buddy.

How more simple can I make all this?





« Last Edit: March 31, 2009, 09:49:56 PM by Webnauts » Logged

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« Reply #56 on: April 01, 2009, 03:38:02 AM »

Here is a quick and dirty visual presentation: http://www.seoworkers.com/images/bucketrank.png
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« Reply #57 on: April 01, 2009, 09:33:47 AM »

Because since the page is noindex, the PR cannot be assigned to it = Dangling Page/Dead End Page!!! Hello? Is that clear now man?

The PageRank arrives at the noindex page but does not stick there.

Can you clarify what does happen to the PR?

If I am wrong, why did Matt say that? Did he suck that out of his fingers?


Is this a German expression or do you have evidence that Matt Cutts can suck information out of his fingers?
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« Reply #58 on: April 01, 2009, 10:03:54 PM »

Boogaloodude,

1. "Dangling links are simply links that point to any page with no outgoing links. They affect the model because it is not clear where their weight should be distributed, and there are a large number of them. Often these dangling links are simply pages that we have not downloaded yet……….Because dangling links do not affect the ranking of any other page directly, we simply remove them from the system until all the PageRanks are calculated. After all the PageRanks are calculated they can be added back in without affecting things significantly." - extract from the original PageRank paper by Google’s founders, Sergey Brin and Lawrence Page.

At WPW Forums Wige tried to explain above:
"If a page has no links, it becomes a "sink". This is resolved by taking the pagerank that has been received by that page, and dividing it among every page in the index - because each page has an equal chance of being visited by the random surfer. However, this represents an anomaly when recalculating pagerank. At that time, the dead ends are removed, the index is normalized, and the pages are replaced."

And he continues:
"Lets assume Google's index is composed of three pages, A B and C. A contains no links, but B and C both link to A. A is thus a dead end (same as if it were not indexable because of robots.txt). When Google calculates PR, at the first iteration, all three pages have a pagerank of .3333 since they are each 1/3 of the known web. At the next iteration, Google takes into account the links. The .333 that B and C have all gets sent to A, since both pages only link there. But how does A's outgoing PR get calculated? A's rank of .333 needs to be given to A, B and C - every page in the index, including itself. But if it gives itself pagerank, it has more pagerank to give, so it should be giving more pagerank... This becomes circular logic, and would make for an endless loop. The solution is that the dead end is removed from the equation as the pagerank is calculated (and page A gets a rank of ~ .900 after dampening and other factors). Now, the pagerank of A can be safely distributed to all of the other pages in the index."

2. Do you have evidence that Matt Cutts can suck information out of his fingers? (german expression) = Do you have evidence that Matt Cutts pulled all that out of his butt?

3. Cutts plays fast & loose with the language; his statements are, as often as not, imprecise and/or self-contradictory. Whether this is by design or nature remains unknown.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 10:10:16 PM by Webnauts » Logged

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« Reply #59 on: April 02, 2009, 08:35:52 AM »

ok, thanks.



3. Cutts plays fast & loose with the language; his statements are, as often as not, imprecise and/or self-contradictory. Whether this is by design or nature remains unknown.


This I'm curious about because I've never noticed him contradict himself, do you have examples?

It serves Google no useful purpose to lie to us but I can understand them being vague, it's not like they can explain exactly how everything works or we'd be able to spam the index.
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